DriveTime

I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID [redacted], and find that this resolution would be satisfactory to me.  I will wait until for the business to perform this action and, if it does, will consider this complaint resolved.

Regards,

I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID [redacted], and have determined that this proposed action would not resolve my complaint. For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.As anticipated they did not do as promised. I feel it was all a ok to sweep this under the rug.. this ischat happened after filling my intial cmplaint. I was contacted by drive time customer service and told to take it to the toyota dealer,they would pay to have it repaired and cover diagnoses.. I was told by an [redacted] he said to take it to the dealer and have them call and it would be taken care off... so I took it to scion toyota at [redacted]. I tried calling alhobdo for two days no answer.. someone fron drive time called the dealer which the dealer.. so I called the dealer he said I needed a transmission and I owed $45 so I was shoked drive time didnt pay for it as promised so I called drive tine since [redacted] was busy I talked with someone else who said I now needed couple more places at least 2 more. Not only have they failed to reimburse me for the last diagnostic fee so im now out 100 for nothing and they want me to speend another 100.. not to. Mention no car equals no car.. point being from day one I have lied to so please direct me to low cost legal services to get my lost money and van I was lied and tricked into trading in?Regards,[redacted]

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. We appreciate the opportunity to readdress our customer’s concerns. Our customer did not miss one specific payment between the months of August 2014 and December 2014. Our customer accrued a delinquent amount totaling $179.74 and a $5.00 late fee on her account when she contacted DriveTime in January of 2015. Between the months of January 2015 through the last payment that has become past due on July 4, our customer has had a total of 14 payments come due for a total of $2,853.48. Our customer has paid a total of $2,354.18 during this time, leaving a delinquent balance of $499.30. Attached is a transaction history for your reference. At this time, DriveTime has reviewed our customer’s account in full and has no new information for our customer. DriveTime is still willing to offer our customer a three (3) payment deferment on her account, to assist with her past due balance. If our customer would like to accept, she will need to contact the Customer Relations Department at ###-###-####, to proceed. DriveTime thanks the Revdex.com for their ongoing support. Should you have any questions or concerns, please contact us by calling us at ###-###-####. Sincerely, [redacted] DriveTime Customer Relations

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. We appreciate the opportunity to readdress our customer’s concerns. On July 24, 2014, our customer contacted Aeverex and advised them she had concerns about a brake noise. Aeverex referred our customer to a repair facility to have the vehicle diagnosed. On July 28, 2014, the repair facility filed a claim with Aeverex. They advised that there was no safety concern with our customer’s brakes. As our customer was within the first 30 days and 1,500 miles of her loan, Aeverex covered the brake diagnosis under the terms of the DriveCare Limited Warranty. On July 31, 2014, our customer contacted DriveTime with concerns that the brake repairs were not being covered. As a goodwill gesture, DriveTime approved our customer’s front brake pad and rotor repairs in full, despite there being no diagnosed safety concern. On October 16, 2014, our customer contacted Aeverex with engine concerns. Aeverex referred our customer to a repair facility to have these issues diagnosed. No claim was filed by a repair facility in regards to this matter. On February 27, 2015, our customer contacted Aeverex with further concerns about engine issues. Aeverex referred our customer to a repair facility to get the vehicle diagnosed. On March 2, 2015, a repair facility filed a claim with Aeverex for the thermostat, heater hose, and intake gasket. These components are not covered under the Vehicle Service Contract, and were therefore not approved by Aeverex. On March 9, 2015, our customer contacted Aeverex with concerns that the repair facility had misdiagnosed the issues with the vehicle. Aeverex authorized our customer to take the vehicle to an out-of-network repair facility for a second opinion. As a goodwill gesture, we agreed to waive the deductible if the repairs were covered under the Vehicle Service Contract. To date, there is no claim on file with Aeverex from an out-of-network repair facility. On March 26, 2015, we reached out to our customer and attempted to address her concerns. We offered our customer payment deferments if she sent in receipts for her previous out of pocket repair expenses. We also encouraged her to take the vehicle to an out-of-network repair facility for further diagnosis so we could review options to assist with her mechanical issues. Our customer declined both these offers and stated she would seek legal action, and then ended the call. On March 31, 2015, our customer voluntarily surrendered the vehicle back to DriveTime. In result, our customer’s account will be reported as a repossession to the three major credit bureaus for seven years. All DriveTime vehicles are thoroughly inspected at our DriveTime inspection centers prior to sale. Parts that fail inspection are replaced. However, if a part is functioning at the time of inspection, there is no need to replace it.On the “Customer Delivery Checklist” under Important Reminder, it is stated:“Our focus of the multi-point inspection is primarily the safety and reliability of your vehicle…Please insure you are comfortable with the condition of the vehicle prior to purchasing.”Additionally, on the “Customer Delivery Checklist” under Maintenance Items, it is stated:“…These maintenance items are subject to replacement only upon failure of the component...”At the time of sale, our customer signed and dated the “Customer Delivery Checklist.” Attached you will find the Customer Delivery Checklist for your review.At this time, we are unable to accommodate our customer’s request to remove the repossession from her credit reporting. We apologize for any inconvenience or confusion this matter may have caused. DriveTime thanks the Revdex.com for their ongoing support. Should you have any questions or concerns, please contact us by calling us at ###-###-####. Sincerely,DriveTimeCustomer Relations

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. We appreciate the opportunity to address our customer’s concerns.
On July 3, 2014, our customers entered into a Cancel Anytime Lease Contract with DriveTime when they leased a 2007 Dodge Caliber. Attached you will find the...

Cancel Anytime Lease Contract for your reference. On December 2, 2014, our auto-pay system attempted to draft a payment and was returned due to insufficient funds on December 4. The auto-pay was then cancelled due to the insufficient funds.
On December 22, 2014, the vehicle was tagged for repossession due to the account being 20 days past due. There are no grace period for lease payments.
On January 3, 2015, and January 13, 2015, DriveTime attempted to reach out to our customers but the home phone number on file was disconnected.
On February 5, 2015, and February 10, 2015, DriveTime attempted to reach out to our customers but the home phone number on file was still not in service.
On February 10, 2015, the vehicle was repossessed due to the account being 70 days past due, totaling $1,332.21. Our customers called into DriveTime using a different phone number than what we had on file to inquire about the status of the vehicle. We advised that they had 48 hours to redeem the vehicle by paying the past due amount and the $240.00 in repossession fees. We also advised that there could be additional fees up to $125 from the repossession agency.
On February 17, 2015, the lease was terminated in the system; therefore, redeeming the vehicle was no longer an option.
On February 19, 2015, we reached out to our customers and advised that returning the vehicle back to them is no longer an option. We also advised that DriveTime attempted to
contact them about the past due payments and expressed the importance of keeping their contact information updated. She advised that she had called in November 2014 to update her information. However, we only have notations that she called in August 2014 and February 2015. We advised it is our customers’ responsibility to make sure their payments are being withdrawn or paid. Our customer stated that she does not want anything from us and will continue to take this situation up with her attorney.
At this time, we are unable to accommodate our customers’ request and come to an amicable resolution. However, as a goodwill gesture, DriveTime is sending our customers a $25 gift card to their address on file.
DriveTime thanks the [redacted] for their ongoing support. Should you have any questions or concerns, please contact us by calling us at ###-###-####.
Sincerely,
DriveTime
Customer Relations

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. We appreciate the opportunity to readdress our customer’s concerns. The actions described in our customer’s correspondence are clearly not in keeping with DriveTime's set standards of service and support. DriveTime strives to make each customer’s experience both rewarding and pleasant, while ensuring that every customer is treated with the utmost respect. On June 6, 2015, our customer’s second bi-weekly payment of $222.63 came due. When our customers’ accounts fall past due, we make regular attempts to contact them and make payment arrangements. After our customer’s account fell past due, we made daily efforts to reach him and cure the account delinquency, but many of our calls went unanswered. During the first months of the loan, it is very important to build payment history, and it is crucial our customers make payments on time. Should our customers’ accounts fall past due in this period, their vehicles are contractually eligible for recovery. On June 16, 2015, at 10 days past due, DriveTime contacted our customer about his account delinquency. Our customer advised that he would call back that day regarding the past due payment, but no further calls were received from him. On June 18, 2015, at 12 days past due, DriveTime exercised their contractual right to secure the vehicle and assigned the vehicle to be recovered. Please refer to the section in the Simple Interest Retail Installment Contract labeled "Default": "You will be in default if any one of the following occurs… 1. You fail to make any payment due under this Contract, including any down payment, in full when such payment is due." On June 19, 2015, at 13 days past due, the vehicle was recovered. Our customer contacted DriveTime with concerns that the vehicle had been recovered despite arrangements he had made with the dealership where he purchased to have a payment credited to his account, due to his previous registration issues. We advised we would research the matter and follow up with our customer, but he advised he just wished to pay the $325.00 in repossession fees, as well as his past due balance, and reclaim the vehicle. On June 22, 2015, our customer reinstated his loan and we released the vehicle to him. We contacted our customer and advised him to reach out to the dealership where he purchased to find out about retrieving the vehicle. Approximately 20 minutes later, we contacted our customer again and advised him that the vehicle was actually at a different dealership, then provided him with the information for that location. We once again encouraged our customer to contact this dealership before going to recover the vehicle, in order to ensure it was ready for pick-up. Without any new information, we are still unable to accommodate our customer’s request to be reimbursed $1,800.00 for gas, the time he missed at work, and his repossession fees. If our customer sends in the ticket he received for having expired tags and the receipt showing it has been paid, we will review options for reimbursement. DriveTime thanks the Revdex.com for their continued support. If you have any questions, please contact us at ###-###-####. Sincerely, [redacted] DriveTime Customer Relations

July 9, 2014

Revdex.com

Ph. [redacted]

Fax [redacted]

Re: Complaint #[redacted]

Dear Ms. [redacted],...

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. We appreciate the opportunity to address our customer’s concerns.

On April 25, 2014, our customer entered into a Simple Interest Retail Installment Contract with DriveTime when he purchased a 2008 [redacted]. Our customer elected to purchase a 5 year/ 50,000 mile service contract, administered by [redacted]. Included you will find the Simple Interest Retail Installment Contract and the Service Contract agreement for your reference.

On July 1, 2014, we reached out to our customer to address his concerns. Our customer has agreed to take his vehicle into a repair facility for diagnosis. Once we have an update from the repair facility we will review for possible assistance.

At this time, we are working with our customer to reach an amicable resolution.

As a goodwill gesture, DriveTime has applied a $25 credit to our customer’s principal balance.

DriveTime thanks the Revdex.com for their ongoing support. Should you have any questions or concerns, please contact us by calling us at [redacted].

Sincerely,

DriveTime

Customer Relations

I have reviewed the response to my letter. A Drive Time rep named [redacted] is in contact with me and stated they will take care of any issues that are not covered by the warranty. I appreciate their assistance in this matter and I appreciate the assistance of the Revdex.com. 

Regards,

I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID [redacted], and find that this resolution would be satisfactory to me.  I will wait until for the business to perform this action and, if it does, will consider this complaint resolved.

Regards,

Re: Complaint # [redacted] Dear Ms. [redacted], Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. We appreciate the opportunity to address our customer’s concerns. On May 25, 2010, our customer entered into a Simple Interest Retail Installment Contract with...

DriveTime when he purchased a 2003 Oldsmobile Alero. Attached you will find the Simple Interest Retail Installment Contract for your reference. In October 2014, DriveTime temporarily ceased credit reporting to all three major credit bureau agencies. This cease was due to required system enhancements taking place regarding the manner in which DriveTime reports to the credit bureaus. We have completed the necessary updates with [redacted] and Equifax, and they have uploaded our customers’ account information for public viewing. At this time, TransUnion has not been responsive to our efforts and requests for them to reinstate reporting for our customers. We have been attempting to work with them to initiate reporting since early April 2015, and will continue to diligently pursue having them report. At DriveTime, we strive to ensure that all of our credit reporting is up to date and accurate.  After a recent in-depth review, we determined that there were questions surrounding the accuracy of our credit reporting for paid loans. For this reason, we were temporarily unable to report accounts that were paid prior to October 1, 2014. We investigated this matter further and found that we were unable to resubmit these loans to the credit bureaus, as they would appear as new trade lines and would be detrimental to our customers’ credit. DriveTime recently received an update from Equifax regarding this matter. Equifax is now able to reinstate our customers’ loans that were paid prior to October 2014 without opening new trade lines. [redacted] is still unable to reinstate these loans, as it would require new trade lines to be opened.At this time, we have requested to reinstate the reporting of our customer’s account with Equifax. Completed updates should reflect on our customer’s credit report within 30-60 days. We have attempted to contact our customer and advise her of the above information, but have been unable to reach her thus far. We will continue to attempt to contact her and address her concerns. We encourage our customer to contact DriveTime’s Customer Relations department at ###-###-####.We apologize for any inconvenience or confusion this matter may have caused. As a goodwill gesture, DriveTime has mailed a $25.00 [redacted] gift card to the address that we have on file for our customer.DriveTime thanks the Revdex.com for their continued support. If you have any questions, please contact us at ###-###-####. Sincerely, [redacted].DriveTime Customer Relations

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. We appreciate the opportunity to address our customer’s concerns.
On October 23, 2014, our customer entered into a Simple Interest Retail Installment Contract when she purchased a 2006 Chevrolet Equinox. Our customer also...

opted to purchase the 3 year/36 month Limited Warranty administered by Aeverex. Included you will find the Simple Interest Retail Installment Contract and Limited Warranty for your reference. On November 22, 2014, a repair facility called into Aeverex to approve paying for the diagnostic fee within the first 30/1,500 mile warranty. However, our customer was responsible for the diagnostic fee due to vehicle being driven 1,645 miles. The repair facility did not call back with details of the claim.
On December 4, 2014, our customer contacted DriveTime regarding the overheating issues with her vehicle and the fees associated with getting the vehicle diagnosed. We advised our customer we would research into what options we can provide to assist her.
On December 9, 2014, our customer contacted DriveTime and received a waiver of the diagnostic fee as an exception. In addition, to assist with the out of pocket costs of repairs, we also processed a payment deferment.
On December 12, 2014, our customer contacted DriveTime and was advised of the steps needed to address the reoccurring overheating issues she was experiencing. We advised that the vehicle needed to go back to the repair facility before we could address the issue. We advised our customer of the rental reimbursement process as well as what DriveTime looks for when we consider taking a customer out of a vehicle.
On December 13, 2014, the repair facility called in a claim for a head gasket replacement to correct the overheating issue. Aeverex approved the needed repair components associated as well as approved five days of reimbursement for a rental vehicle.
On December 30, 2014, our customer contacted DriveTime in regards to the length of time it is taking to fix the vehicle. Due to the repeated overheating issues, DriveTime made the exception to provide four days of direct bill rental. Our customer stated she was upset that she paid over $200 more than what Aeverex will reimburse her for. We advised our customer to send in her rental receipts and we can review for a possible reimbursement credit.
On January 6, 2015, our customer called into Aeverex stating that she was experiencing overheating issues once again and has taken the vehicle back to the repair facility.
On January 9, 2015, our customer contacted DriveTime requesting rental assistance. A two-day direct bill rental was granted as an exception. A repair claim was called into Aeverex during this time and was fully approved.
On January 12, 2015, our customer contacted DriveTime and advised that the repair is now complete and she was going to pick up the vehicle but was hesitant. We advised our customer that if she runs into any other overheating issues to contact us directly and we would look into other options for her.
On January 16, 2014, we reached out to our customer to address her [redacted] complaint and discussed the repair history with an authorized third party. We also advised that the credit of $213.49 for the excess rental reimbursement has posted to the account. We confirmed that our customer is in possession of the vehicle and is currently not having any mechanical issues. However, if any mechanical issues arise in the upcoming months, please reach out to us to review other options.
DriveTime thanks the [redacted] for their ongoing support. Should you have any questions or concerns, please contact us by calling us at ###-###-####.
Sincerely,
DriveTime
Customer Relations

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. We appreciate the opportunity to readdress our customer’s concerns. DriveTime requires a customer be in their loan 6 months prior to making any modifications on their loan. At the time our customer contacted DriveTime to request a frequency change, he had only been in his loan for 5 months. At this time, DriveTime has accommodated our customer’s request and a frequency change has been applied to his account. Should you have any questions or concerns, please contact us by calling us at ###-###-####. Sincerely, [redacted] DriveTime Customer Relations Department

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. We appreciate the opportunity to address our customer’s concerns. On April 24, 2014, our customer entered into a Simple Interest Retail Installment contract when they purchased a 2008 Dodge Caliber. Our customer purchased a 3...

year/36,000 mile vehicle service contract, administered by [redacted]. Included you will find the retail installment contract and the vehicle service contract for your reference. On May 30, 2014, our customer made an inquiry to the warranty company, [redacted] regarding engine noise. [redacted] referred the customer to a repair facility and informed our customer of the $100 in-network deductible. On June 19, 2014, our customer contacted DriveTime regarding a concern with the vehicle’s power steering, tires, and $100 in network deductible. Our customer was informed of the Champ program. DriveTime’s Champ program allows our customers to trade in their vehicle once a sufficient amount has been paid towards the principal balance. On July 8, 2014, our customer contacted [redacted] stating his vehicle lost power, A/C not cooling and loud engine noises. [redacted] referred our customer to a repair facility for diagnosis and informed him of the $100 deductible. In addition, [redacted] informed our customer he could be reimbursed up to $75.00 for the towing services, if the issue was a covered repair. The customer stated he would contact DriveTime and have us retrieve the vehicle. On July 29, 2014, we contacted our customer to investigate his concerns. We offered to waive any diagnostic fee and towing of his vehicle to a repair facility. Due to the history of the vehicle, and his apprehensions we advised our customer we were willing to offer a settlement to get him out of the vehicle. Our customer informed us he is not in possession of the vehicle and disclosed its last reported location. We informed our customer we are unable to approve any settlement agreement until we are in possession of the vehicle. We advised him we would attempt to pinpoint the vehicle, but were unable to locate. At this time, we are unable to accommodate our customer’s request to refund his down payment or address his mechanical concerns. We advised our customer until the vehicle is returned he is still held to his contractual agreement to maintain payments, and any fees incurred. As a goodwill gesture, DriveTime has applied a $25 credit to our customer’s principal balance. DriveTime thanks the Revdex.com for their ongoing support. Should you have any questions or concerns, please contact us by calling us at [redacted]- [redacted]. Sincerely, DriveTime Customer Relations

[redacted]  [redacted]

I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID [redacted], and find that this resolution would be satisfactory to me.  I will wait until for the business to perform this action and, if it does, will consider this complaint resolved.

Regards,

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. We appreciate the opportunity to address our customer’s concerns.
On December 18, 2015, our customer entered into a Simple...

Interest Retail Installment Contract with DriveTime when he purchased a 2009 Ford Flex. All DriveTime vehicles come with a 30 day/1,500 mile limited warranty, administered by Aeverex, and the option to purchase a Vehicle Service Contract. Attached you will find the Simple Interest Retail Installment Contract and Limited Warranty for your reference.If our customers are dissatisfied with their purchase for any reason, DriveTime offers a Vehicle Return Program that allows them to return the vehicle and terminate their Simple Interest Retail Installment Contract within the first five days of their loan.
Prior to entering into the loan for the 2009 Ford Flex, our customer had entered into two previous Simple Interest Retail Installment Contracts. Our customer opted to return both vehicles within the Vehicle Return Period. Our records do not indicate any mechanical issues reported for either of these vehicles.
All DriveTime vehicles are thoroughly inspected prior to sale at our DriveTime inspection centers. Parts that fail inspection are replaced. However, if a part is functioning at the time of inspection, there is no need to replace it.
On December 23, 2015, a repair facility filed a claim with [redacted]. The claim reported that the vehicle needed a battery replacement. [redacted] covered the cost of the replacement.
On December 24, 2015, DriveTime’s Customer Relations Department contacted our customer to address his concerns. We advised our customer that if he would like to return the vehicle, we could arrange to have the DriveTime dealership tow the vehicle back to the lot to complete the process. Our customer informed us that was no longer necessary as his vehicle concerns were addressed in his previous visit to the repair facility… (Continued in full response submitted to the Revdex.com)

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. We appreciate the opportunity to re-address our customer’s concerns.

We confirmed that the last payment received from our customer was on August 15, 2014 for $378.00.

DriveTime offers payment deferments to our customers as exceptions to assist them in bringing the account current after a hardship has ended. We are unable to accommodate our customer’s request for a two-payment deferment since the account is past due two monthly payments ($419.06) and a partial payment of $41.06 for June. In addition, our customer would need to sign loan modification paperwork if approved for a two-payment deferment.

We have attempted to reach our customer via phone to review her concerns, but have been unsuccessful. We mailed a certified letter to our customer to contact DriveTime. We will continue our efforts and once we are able to reach the customer, we will address their concerns.

DriveTime thanks the Revdex.com for their ongoing support. Should you have any questions or concerns, please contact us by calling us at [redacted]- [redacted].

Sincerely,

DriveTime

Customer Relations

I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID [redacted], and have determined that this proposed action would not resolve my complaint.  For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below. 
 
Yes, they called and I returned their phone calls, and was told that the Agent handling my account would contact me back. That never happened. It was also stated in their response that they credited my account $25 as a courtesy, and they sent me a certified letter. This too was a lie. None of these things were done.  The only thing that Drive Time has been consistent with is not following through with what they say they're going to do.

Regards,[redacted]

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. We appreciate the opportunity to address our customer’s concerns.On May 3, 2014, our customer entered into a Closed End Motor Vehicle Lease contract when she leased a 2008 Chrysler Pacifica. The vehicle came with the Driver’s Seat Limited...

Warranty agreement. Included you will find the Closed End Motor Vehicle Lease contract and the Driver’s Seat Limited Warranty agreement for your reference.On May 19, 2014, we contacted our customer and came to an amicable resolution. DriveTime agreed to exchange our customer into another vehicle.As a goodwill gesture, DriveTime has applied a $25 credit to our customer’s principal balance.DriveTime thanks the Revdex.com for their ongoing support. Should you have any questions or concerns, please contact us by calling us at [redacted].Sincerely,DriveTimeCustomer Relations

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. We appreciate the opportunity to address our customer’s concerns. The actions described in our customer's correspondence are not in keeping with DriveTime's set standards of service and support. DriveTime strives to make each customer’s...

experience both rewarding and pleasant while ensuring that every customer is treated with the utmost respect. Our loan servicing department is designed to work with our customer to make payment arrangements or offer assistance to resolve the past due amount. We have thoroughly investigated these specific concerns and have taken appropriate action to ensure DriveTime policies and procedures are followed by our loan-servicing department. We are unable to accommodate our customer’s request to change her frequency from bi-weekly to monthly as our customer’s account is 115 days past due at $1,722.01. Accounts must be brought current prior to a frequency change. We are able to accommodate our customer’s request to put a cease and desist on her account. Our customer will be contacted via email and letters only. We encourage our customer to contact our loan-servicing department to make necessary payment arrangements. As a goodwill gesture, DriveTime has mailed a $25.00 American Express gift card to our customer’s address listed on file. DriveTime thanks the Revdex.com for their ongoing support. Should you have any questions or concerns, please contact us by calling us at ###-###-####. Sincerely, DriveTime Customer Relations

When I first called in about the car in February I sent the car to the same repair facility as in april. Because they were not able to find any noticeable issue they sent me home and did not need to make a call to the warranty center. So there were two times that I needed to send the car to the repair facility and was denied service. When I spoke with customer service I was also denied service. There was no one that wanted to help me I spoke with two young ladies that told me to give it back if I did not want it. It was so unfair that they allowed me to go through this like it was all my fault. Struggling to come up with repair money and pay for the car. It just was not right. Now they tell me that I have to take the car to the shop again but will not give me a car big enough to take my family around. I have two sick children that have daily doctor appointments and I have to get them there how can I do that when I have to leave my car at the repair facility and they would not even give me a rental big enough to take my kids around but told me to pay for it and they will reimburse me I don't have money for all of this I can barely make ends meet now. I do not accept this offer I will do what I can do to get my car to the shop once I do not have any appointments for my son and when I do not have to work. This is ridiculous just take the care back give me my deposit back and we can call it even.