Fireside Hearth and Leisure Reviews (%countItem)
Fireside Hearth and Leisure Rating
Address: 1182 S Otsego Ave, Gaylord, Michigan, United States, 49735-7456
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Late September, my wife and I visited this store in Gaylord, a 45 minute drive, wanting information on Napoleon gas heating stoves of which they had one installed and on display. We were soon thereafter redirected to a more expensive Lopi stove, though not installed, by the salesman Chris F. As we have an older Lopi Berkshire stove, brand loyalty kicked in and we were content to leave the store with information and a quote for a new Lopi Northfield stove to be used in a separate addition. Chris noted that we were interested in the same size and color as the floor model, and the "only difference was the back-lighting feature," since that model could be vented horizontally, as wanted, or vertically, as existed, with minor conversion and an extra top grate panel. He suggested that he could ask the manager whether that stove might be discounted. We deliberated at home about the model, and price, for a few weeks before inquiring with the manager, Randy P. He offered a 20% discount, promised to convert the venting and provide the extra grate piece, which had to be ordered, but wanted a substantial deposit "to get the process going." No mention of non-refundability. I agreed over the phone.
Two weeks later, my wife planned an excursion to Gaylord, and offered to pick up the stove, with one day notice, even though the grate piece hadn't been shipped by Lopi yet. Saturday being busy, it was hastily loaded and paid for. Upon her returning home, I noticed considerable wear, chips in enamel mostly under lid, combustion deposits inside glass, gas hose hanging off back, no conversion of venting done or cleaning of any kind, and I discovered a manufacturing date over 5 years earlier. I was disheartened and asked her to return the stove ASAP. She did but found abhorrent resistance, with manager and salesman alike claiming they never take stoves back despite that not being posted or written anywhere, or spoken prior to sale. After much argument, a store credit was offered.
Product_Or_Service: Lopi gas heating stove
Order_Number: invoice #
Refund My wife was ganged up on and verbally abused in trying to negotiate a return, so much so that she vowed to never do business with Fireside Hearth and Leisure. We have also found a brand of stove better suited in its specifications from a competing company and have purchased elsewhere. As such, a refund is the only practical option. No harm, wear or depreciation of any kind was incurred by our brief possession of the Lopi stove, so claim to withhold funds is unwarranted.
Contact Name and Title: Randy P
Contact Phone: ***
Contact Email: ***
I have read through this complaint. Mr. was not present on the day of the return, but sent his wife to make the return. His complaint that "we ganged up on her" is based on hearsay. Four employees were here and witnessed the encounter, only two of whom were actually involved, and we were simply unified in our position because she was demanding that we deviate from a long-standing and clearly posted policy: there are no returns on stoves. She refused to leave the premises until we unloaded the stove from her car, so after being badgered by her for over 15 minutes we made an exception for her and issued her a store credit certificate, which she signed (see attachment) and then subsequently removed the stove from her vehicle as requested. Everything in the discussion leading up to the sale and the paperwork associated with the sale clearly stated that the unit they were purchasing was not a new unit, but a showroom display unit. This is why they were able to purchase this unit at a nearly 20% discount off the regular price for that unit. After they had decided to return the unit, they suddenly complained that there were chips in the enamel finish, and that the unit has been "extensively used," based on a slight haze on the glass which can occur on a new stove after only a few hours of use due to impurities in the gas and the composition of the ceramic logs. Even if it had been extensively used, this is immaterial because they had every opportunity to inspect the stove before they purchased it, and knew in advance that this was a store demo. They had been discussing its purchase for weeks before they took possession, including at least one visit to the store where the unit was located.
In a phone call subsequent to the return, Mr. indicated to Randy P that the reason they wished to return the stove was that they had found a different stove they believed better suited their space. This subsequent stove was a stove we could have provided to them, using their store credit, but they chose not to do this; in fact, they never gave us the opportunity to provide them with the other stove. They simply demanded that we violate store policy by refunding their purchase price, and then made an illegitimate chargeback claim to their credit card when we would not. The chargeback was decided in Fireside's favor. Since then, the ***s have opened a different chargeback case which is still pending.
Fireside has a phenomenal reputation in the community built by many transactions with satisfied customers. This customer chose to try to circumvent store policy, and the signed agreement we reached, and now is simply upset that they are unable to do this.
Document Attached***
I have read through this complaint. Mr. was not present on the day of the return, but sent his wife to make the return. His complaint that "we ganged up on her" is based on hearsay. Four employees were here and witnessed the encounter, only two of whom were actually involved, and we were simply unified in our position because she was demanding that we deviate from a long-standing and clearly posted policy: there are no returns on stoves. She refused to leave the premises until we unloaded the stove from her car, so after being badgered by her for over 15 minutes we made an exception for her and issued her a store credit certificate, which she signed (see attachment) and then subsequently removed the stove from her vehicle as requested. Everything in the discussion leading up to the sale and the paperwork associated with the sale clearly stated that the unit they were purchasing was not a new unit, but a showroom display unit. This is why they were able to purchase this unit at a nearly 20% discount off the regular price for that unit. After they had decided to return the unit, they suddenly complained that there were chips in the enamel finish, and that the unit has been "extensively used," based on a slight haze on the glass which can occur on a new stove after only a few hours of use due to impurities in the gas and the composition of the ceramic logs. Even if it had been extensively used, this is immaterial because they had every opportunity to inspect the stove before they purchased it, and knew in advance that this was a store demo. They had been discussing its purchase for weeks before they took possession, including at least one visit to the store where the unit was located.
In a phone call subsequent to the return, Mr. indicated to Randy P that the reason they wished to return the stove was that they had found a different stove they believed better suited their space. This subsequent stove was a stove we could have provided to them, using their store credit, but they chose not to do this; in fact, they never gave us the opportunity to provide them with the other stove. They simply demanded that we violate store policy by refunding their purchase price, and then made an illegitimate chargeback claim to their credit card when we would not. The chargeback was decided in Fireside's favor. Since then, the ***s have opened a different chargeback case which is still pending.
Fireside has a phenomenal reputation in the community built by many transactions with satisfied customers. This customer chose to try to circumvent store policy, and the signed agreement we reached, and now is simply upset that they are unable to do this.
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
A deposit over the phone was made for a floor model gas heating stove before proper inspection as a gesture of sincerity so that retailer would commence conversion of unit to rear venting. No mention was made regarding return policy. Weeks later, when my wife picked up the stove, it was hastily loaded by an employee with emphasis on signing charge authorization, (no invoice provided), and getting her on her way, rather than confirming the suitability and satisfaction of the purchase. Again no mention of return policy, either through postings in the store at the time, written or spoken. It had not been converted as promised, or even cleaned up. Closer inspection revealed the manufacturer's card wedged underneath stating it to be 5 years old, that it had considerable use with numerous chips in the enamel. 20% off from a new, more expensive model with no servicing provided was not sufficient to prevent us from feeling snookered. I asked my wife to return the stove immediately, not knowing the ordeal she would have to go through. Her physical inability to handle the stove and naivety in certain legal matters,led her to sign a return for store credit, as her only perceived method to enact a return. This was after being ganged up on by 3 male employees, who at times were very belligerent. We did not want to do business with Fireside anymore, having had such a bad customer service experience and requested a settlement to no avail. The invoice, not received until morning of return, only states a non-return policy for special order items, as well as a 30-day return policy for unused parts with receipt. The return receipt that was given after my wife agreed to sign the 'store credit only' provision, only states that 'all returns are subject to a 15% restocking fee' We learned through this whole process that our credit card would have been able to withhold the funds if the stove had been left at the store without signing anything. My wife had been told by the manager Randy P, when he finally agreed to come out and look at the stove in the back of the car, that she could 'throw the stove in the parking lot', that it was hers and that he did not care what she did with it. The whole ordeal was a very traumatic experience and none should ever be treated like that.
My husband responded to the communication we received and I sent it before getting a chance to read the comments from Fireside. THIS is not hearsay, I was there. There were 3 male employees involved in this encounter: Chris F, the salesman who had written up our estimate for a new stove, Randy P the manager, and Jason B, another sales person. The only other employee, a woman, just made a comment or 2. Jason was actually the most pleasant of the 3, trying to help me solve this. In doing so, he mentioned several times that the return policy posted in the store, did not specify stoves (it actually only talked about parts ordered) and that that had been a problem in the past. He volunteered that it was something that was needing to be changed. As far as us knowing anything from the paperwork associated with the purchase: NOTHING had been received by us at all. There had been several weeks since we paid the requested deposit with a credit card and not even a receipt for that was sent. When I picked up the stove on Saturday October 26, all I received was a credit card slip and payment receipt that did not have ANY information on it, regarding the purchase. The first time that I saw any paperwork other than the estimate that we received on September 27, was on the day of the return: Monday morning October 28. There was an enhanced estimate showing the discount and that it was a close out display unit; and an invoice marked 'paid'. On all 3 papers, the description of the stove: a new 2020 *** stove by ***. And even that was not at all correct, since we had told Chris F that we needed a NG (Natural Gas) stove, not LP as the estimate stated. We had not really given any attention to the floor model in question, since the suggestion of possibly being able to purchase that one at a discount was not brought up by Chris until right before we left the store on 9/27. He had told us that the only difference there was between the store model and a new one, was the back lighting feature in the firebox. Even that was not correct, as I found out through conversation with a *** representative. So in effect, we never received any paperwork at all reflecting the stove that they pushed on us. I had indicated to Chris that I was concerned about the substantial distance that this stove needed to be installed from the back wall (8.5 inches), since the room is very small (11.5x13.5 feet). Instead of telling me about other stoves, he came up with reasons that we needed to purchase this one. This was the only stove company, according to him, that has replacement parts still available after 25 years. Another untrue statement as we found out later. And yes, we trusted Chris and took him for his word. We ended up buying a stove at a local dealer with great customer service and non-pushy sales people (they had the very size stove that we were looking for, in their store; one that they had taken back from the customer after it became clear that it was too small for the location. We considered it, but did not end up with it.) The one we ended up with has a 0" clearance requirement from the back wall. And yes, we could have purchased that one in ***, if we had been told about its existence. I clearly gave Chris F the opportunity to find us a more suitable stove when I talked with him on the phone. We came to *** because we had found a Napoleon stove online that we were interested in looking at and they were the closest dealer. After this ordeal, I have little desire to go back to ***, even though my very favorite store (with great customer service) is right across the road from the Fireside store.
As far as the 'slight haze' on the glass? We have 3 other gas stoves (one of them a larger *** stove) and they do not get that dirty in several seasons of constant use. As I indicated before, when helping to load the stove on our pickup truck on 10/26, I remember thinking that it was not at all like the new-ish stove we had been told we were getting. But focused on securing it for the ride back to ***, I did not address it. Nor was Chris F around to look at it; he had gone back into the store immediately after it hit the tailgate.
I shared this story with quite a few people because it was very upsetting. I do not think that the Fireside reputation is as Mr. P indicates. I encountered several people in random situations in our ***/*** area, who had bad customer service experiences with Fireside in *** as well. One also mentioned that a *** business connected to this one, had such a bad reputation that they moved out of town. When I explained what had happened to the people at the *** chamber of Commerce; the very nice gentleman I spoke with offered to go and talk with the Fireside manager, as he said that the Fireside business practices did not at all fit ***.
I have worked in retail situations. If ever I would have treated a customer as I was at Fireside, I would have been fired. And rightfully so. None wants to do business where you get railroaded and bullied! And then to be accosted with lies. NO, we did not receive any paperwork, and even when I did, there was no mention of a non-return policy for stoves ANYWHERE! And absolutely not on the signs in the store either, though there may be now. Just as Jason said there should have been all along. It is quite disturbing that the manager has to lie about things. From the very first minute on 10/28/2019 my experience was bad and it has only gotten worse since then. So, if this stove was really the fantastic-deal-not-to-be-passed-up that I was told about by all 4 employees, why was taking it back such a big deal? Anneke
Document Attached
Hello,
Our position on the matter concerning Mr. and Mrs. stands. We made a concession on our return policy to accommodate the ***s by providing an in-store credit to put the money they had spent toward any other gas stove of their choice. This agreement was accepted and signed by both parties. Mrs. mentions us converting the stove to be able to vent out the rear. This was a special order rear vent conversion kit that had to be ordered specifically for the ***s to have this happen. As we were not hired to do the installation of the product, this would not have been a conversion we would have performed, but this item was ordered specifically for the ***s, and again we made a concession to the ***s to give an in-store credit even though our posted policy clearly states no returns on special order products, no exceptions. Mrs. has also made mention that because her estimate and paperwork says (LP) propane burner orifices at the end of the gas stove description that we sold her a propane gas stove. This is not the case. The gas stoves from the manufacturer of the stove in question come configured for natural gas but ship with the propane orifices to change the fuel type if needed. This is another accusation that is completely untrue.
Mr. called the store a little less than a month ago and informed me that instead of using his in-store credit here to buy a stove, he and his wife decided to purchase a stove elsewhere. He explained he bought a *** gas stove for its tighter installation clearances, not because of the condition of the stove he originally purchased as has been claimed by his wife. I informed Mr. that I have a supplier I could have gotten this stove from, and he could have used his in-store credit here to purchase the *** gas stove. Although an agreement was made and signed by Mrs., they proceeded to dispute the charges through their credit card. The credit card company has sided with us on one of the disputes, and awarded us back the funds. The other portion of the payment is again under review as it had been disputed and returned to us, but then disputed again. In the same call Mr. asked that we settle our dispute and offered to pay me a sum of money to do so. As the ***s continue to slander and libel our business, we have decide to let the credit card companies come to their full conclusion in regard to this matter with the clear evidence supplied.
Mrs. continues to make false accusations and blatantly untrue statements about our company. Our company is not affiliated with any company or organization in ***. There is a business in *** with a similar name, but it is not and never has been affiliated with our business. Our business was purchased in 2008 from another company with a very dissimilar name which still is doing business in ***, but we are not affiliated with them in any way either. How this other unaffiliated company may have conducted business in *** before selling the business is irrelevant hearsay. I cannot comment on this, as I do not have reliable information on how they conducted their business. Mrs. is also spreading hearsay statements she claims others have made in an attempt to discredit our business. We have many satisfied customers saying the exact opposite of what Mrs. is saying. We have long been in standing as an A+ rated business with the Revdex.com, and we strive to do our very best with every customer we encounter. We also are members of the *** Chamber of Commerce, and have not been contacted by anyone from the *** Chamber of Commerce regarding this matter.
In closing I would like to reinforce that we have always striven to meet and exceed customer expectations. We occasionally make exceptions to our store policy, as we did with the ***s, to avoid or resolve conflicts, but clearly this cannot be a normal practice, and our conditions and policies are clearly posted in the store which they visited. A compromise agreement was reached and signed, but now the customer refuses to abide by it. This does not represent any wrongdoing on the part of our business, as the customer is alleging.
(The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.)
This is a response to the communication with the Revdex.com by Randy P from Fireside Hearth and Leisure, dated 2/26/2020.
Since I have written about the happenings around our purchase and return of the *** stove at length, I am only addressing the misstatements in this response.
Concession on store return policy: Not ANYWHERE was it mentioned or posted that there was no return accepted on stoves. This was also not a special order, it was a store model. Yes, I did sign the agreement when I felt left without any other choice. Later we learned from *** and *** that if I had just left the stove in their possession and not signed anything, we would have received our money back through the credit cards. In retrospect, I wish we would have contacted the credit cards about this immediately, even before the return.
I mentioned that we were sold a propane stove: I only mentioned that the estimate specified LP, even though we had clearly stated needing a NG stove. And the description was not ever changed from the one on the estimate, but used for all subsequent paperwork.
My husband did contact Randy P to try to resolve the issue amicably in early January, but did not have any success. If indeed they could have helped us with a stove that was more suited for our space, they had plenty of time to do so as we went through the purchase process. I called about this specifically before our purchase and Chris F only talked me back into purchasing the one that they were anxious to have us end up with, for reasons we were only to find out after closer inspection. We had taken him at his word that the store model was like a new stove, without the very newest feature of a back light in the firebox. I let him talk us into the purchase because we did at that time believe we were getting an okay deal that was worth the inconvenience of the not-perfect wall clearance.
My husband did not ever indicate that it had nothing to do with the condition of the *** stove we received. It had everything to do with that. The disheveled stove with a gas-pipe dangling from it, did not at all fit the description we were given. Added to that the response by the store manager Randy P when I came back with the stove as soon as possible, my husband figured that customer service and warranty provided by the store as promised would also be not forthcoming. I had been told by Randy P in the first few minutes at the store when making the return,that I was lying about us not having received any paperwork at the time of the order or pickup from the store. It shows very neglectful and disrespectful treatment of their paperwork as well as us as a customer.
After calling the Chamber of Commerce in *** about the ordeal with the return of the stove, the gentleman who answered the phone said that a business practice like that was not welcome in ***. He did stop in at the store in person, to let you know that. Afterwards he called me back to let me know that nothing would change.
I am sure that by now there are plenty of signs making people aware of the details of the return policies. However, as Jason B noted, they were not there at the time and it had been more than once,a problem before.
I thought that the manufacturer of *** stoves (***) should know about the lack of customer service from this dealer. It has taken many calls to have that message end up where it needs to be. The current status is that a representative from the headquarters of Fireside Hearth and Leisure, under which the store in *** operates, will be meeting with us in a few weeks.
Anneke